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Thread: Petzl Lynx

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane View Post
    No one can justify the broken stainless sabers...and there have been lots of them.

    http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012...stainless.html

    Also the Petzl Lynx front points are forged..not cast.

    For what ever reason there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.

    From Petzl: http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/news...mixed-climbing

    "- front points are made of lost wax process"

    Lost wax process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost-wax_casting

    front points are cast.

  2. #22
    Took me a whille to see this and then get an answer from Petzl.

    My apologies. The Lynx is indeed a wax casting. I don't trust auto response comments so wanted that to be clarified in person from Petzl. Which it was. The Darts and Dartwins front points are forged then welded on.

    My apologies for the misinformation on the Lynx. From the returns this season at Petzl the Lynx are just as durable as the Darts and Dartwins have been in the past.

    Happy to have a discussion on casting if you like. Done right it can be extremely durable compared to a well done forging. The difference in today's technology is not generally strength or durability but the abiity to cast a much more intricate part. Quick comparison of Dartwin front points and the Lynx front points will tell you why Petzl decided on a cast part.

  3. #23
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    http://www.on-ice.it/onice/viewtopic...=154022#154022

    I think that this (and there are other examples out there) are a perfect example of why casting on a very small part like a front point is a bad idea. The advantage of casting is that it allows for more complex shapes than a forging process, and in many cases is less expensive. The disadvantage of casting is that is does not provide any sort of grain uniformity in the material. this is not much of an issue on large parts where there is sufficient material to out weigh the need for grain structure. Casting is typically not going to be the best process for any part that is trying to be at a minimum weight with the highest strength properties.

    Forgings have a big advantage on less complex shaped and smaller parts. Front points are a perfect example of a good use for a forging process. forgings in general are much stronger parts due to the processes being inherently unequal. There is a very good reason that the engineers a Boeing choose to use forgings and not castings on flight critical structural components.

  4. #24
    Yes the pair of crampons from the of Italian web site are a great picture. But to date the only pair I have seen of a broken Lynx front point. Have you proof of more?

    Forging is a good process done right. But you are mistaken if you think good casting is not up to the effort on crampons or other hard use parts.

    MIM and other casting methods are not what they were (if they were available) even a decade ago. The firearms industry (where I work) is now full of castings that were formally only forged parts. Many of those cast parts (formally forged parts) are required to take a million of cycles or more. Some have an even better reliability history than the original forgings did. Much to the original detractor's (including myself) surprise.

    So yes on one hand you can make exceptional parts from forgings. But you can also make excellent parts from the right casting process as well. Boeing uses all sorts of manufacturing techniques including casting and forgings. Not the best comparison.

    I was told and believe that the Lynx has no more of a failure rate than the Dart or Dartwin's forged front point. Both those older crampons have a long history now of durability and reliability. They fail as well but it isn't often.

    When I was a kid..the joke was "made in Japan". These days "made in Japan" is generally a sign of quality. Same comment applies to your comments on cast verses forged to a fair extent...just a bit dated and ill informed.

  5. #25
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    Yes boeing uses a lot of different manufacturing processes. In my line of work I have seen designs/engineering for a lot of their parts. The horizontal stabilizer (little rear wings) for their newest aircraft is pretty big and has a lot of components in it. If any of those components fail that plane could crash and kill ~300 people. I spent over a month digging through all this and saw hundreds of forgings and not a single casting. Boeing has more money and more engineers than all the climbing companies combined, and have been at it a long time.

    Using the firearm industry is not a great example. If you compare a barrel, which would see the highest force of any component in a gun, to a front point to have some fundamental flaws in your logic. A barrel sees force from the inside of a tube trying to expand out radially. A front point is a classic beam bending / moment arm, application. Not even close to comparable.

    I agree that technology changes and that casting has gotten better, no doubt. But petzl has not proved that their casting process is any better than a forging process. You seem to have good contacts there, see if they will get you a few dozen front points and I will gladly cycle test them in my lab, I'll do Grivel and BD ones too while I'm at it. I would much prefer to let the data do the talking.

  6. #26
    Agreed, data should be doing the talking.

    But back up a bit. Barrels are not cast. None that I know of anyway. But hammers, sears and frames and many of the other parts in modern firarms are. And all have been forged in the past or at least cut from bar stock and heat treated accordingly. All requiring the durability of 100s of thousands of cycles with stesses on much smaller tolerences and of much higher forces that an crampon will ever get.

    Forgings hu? Generally a milled tool steel part that is heat treated to spec will sufice. Steel like aermet for example which Boeing uses a lot of here in the Seattle area. Most of tthe small shops here do e contract work for Boeing.

    As I said..modern castings are up to the task of a simple front point. Beam bending / moment arm, application? Not that far of a stretch for cast parts in firearms currently.

    You want to argue Petzl's use of a casting that has two documented failures that I know of but tell us the horizontal stainless crampons don't have an issue?

    interesting screen name...seems awful familiar some how OAKM or OAKLEM?

  7. #27
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    OK then, Petzl sees returns on all their vertical frontpoint models. And since the Lynx is at the lowest with 2 pairs broken (we all know of) in 6 months (these were not available any sooner), what is the returns rate on the Darts and Dartwin? It has to be higher right? you said that Petzl told you the Lynx was doing better. What do you consider acceptable for crampons returns since you obviously considers Petzl’s return rate good enough?

  8. #28
    Hey Oaklem as a new resident of SLC Utah and since we are all into full disclosure right? You have refused to answer on ST, how about an answer here? Kinda sad you deemed it neccessary to change the subject and attempt to smear another company that has more than proven they are concerned about their customers.

    Sad indeed.

    Here is a straight up question for you Oakm. Do you work for BD now or have you in the past as a employee, as contract labor or have you ever applied for a job with BD? What I want to know specifically is have you ever had any sort of professional relationship with BD. The answer can be a simple and clear cut, yes or no.
    and now we know why...
    For what ever reason there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.
    Last edited by Dane; 04-11-2012 at 11:30 PM. Reason: full disclosure

  9. #29
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    Back to the topic.
    The Lynx crampons are freaking awesome. Only issue I had with them last season was that eventually the anti-bot plate starts to tear near the front points.
    Oh, and you can mount the Lynx's in clip mode then mod-out any old pair of clip crampons with the bucket bails and and make your clip Seracs/Saberteeth/G14/Rambos(though why you'd do this??)/Vampires whatever into a semi-auto crampon. Went from climbing Yellow/Black to Orange/Black with no complaints.

  10. #30
    That's going to be my new crampon. awesome!!!

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