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Myxomatosis
03-07-2012, 05:26 PM
Before I start this review, I'd like to make a full disclaimer: this was my first season Ice Climbing. However, these were not my first pair of crampons.

Pros: I had a very easy time adjusting these crampons. They easily fit my boots (Nepals), and adjustments are quick. Changing from mono to dual is pretty painless and I could even see doing it out in the field with little problem.

Cons: The front points get loose by the end of any day climbing. I've tried cranking down hard on the nut/bolt, and still I can shake them back and forth by the time I'm done on the ice. I've also had the screws holding the rear anti-bottes unscrew while walking around. Also, the lever-lock system Petzl uses still needs adjustment; the strap should be above the fulcrum, not below.

Overall: I'll be keeping them.

Cramer
03-07-2012, 08:00 PM
Hmm.

I rocked them all season and have had none of these problems. I am sure i just shot myself in the foot though. I just switched them to mono and i agree painless and easy.

Only thing i can say is the front points kinda turn inward towards each other on my Baturas a bit more than i would like.

Other than that they climb way better than my old Sabertooth's....

greenmtnboy
03-07-2012, 08:39 PM
Cons: The front points get loose by the end of any day climbing. I've tried cranking down hard on the nut/bolt, and still I can shake them back and forth by the time I'm done on the ice. I've also had the screws holding the rear anti-bottes unscrew while walking around.
.

Not sure it will help with the above. I've had success with tightening loose bolts by putting the offender in the freezer for a night and then cranking down hard on them when they are good and chilled.

oaklem
03-07-2012, 09:10 PM
If you have screws loosing up try replacing the nut with a self locking nut, or put blue loctite on them, that should solve your problem.

These crampons have seen some some pretty bad return rates to vendors due to broken front points. Petzl is using a casting process to produce them and the overall strength is not nearly as strong as a forged point. This is not as much of an issue in dual point as the force is distributed more but be careful in mono. There have been reports of people breaking them on just a few days of climbing.

Cramer
03-07-2012, 09:21 PM
If you have screws loosing up try replacing the nut with a self locking nut, or put blue loctite on them, that should solve your problem.

These crampons have seen some some pretty bad return rates to vendors due to broken front points. Petzl is using a casting process to produce them and the overall strength is not nearly as strong as a forged point. This is not as much of an issue in dual point as the force is distributed more but be careful in mono. There have been reports of people breaking them on just a few days of climbing.

WTF how can a company as large as Petzl justify not Forge something over casting when they dam well know it is far superior and a break could be a big problem. I got these to replace my stainless BD Sabertooth's being reports where coming in of them cracking.

I just switched to Mono two weeks ago. I do however carry the extra front point and tools in my pack just in case. Lets just hope just in case in not in a really really bad spot!!

oaklem
03-07-2012, 11:24 PM
Stainless crampons are totally bomber. BD did their homework. If you have the pro model of sabretooth they are much stronger than the clip models and you shouldn't worry about them. It's also odd that people climb ice in horizontal point crampons. Vertical point crampons are significantly more durable and they climb pure ice better. Save your horizontal points for the snow...

Another thing about the stainless crampons to consider is that you can see cracks in them because there is no paint and can return them to BD. Painted ChroMo pons break too but you wont know it until they they blow up.

What it boils down to is that people have unrealistic expectations for the longevity of their gear. Most of your climbing gear has a 3-5 year life span and should be replaced. Everything breaks, period.

Cramer
03-07-2012, 11:53 PM
Stainless crampons are totally bomber. BD did their homework. If you have the pro model of sabretooth they are much stronger than the clip models and you shouldn't worry about them. It's also odd that people climb ice in horizontal point crampons. Vertical point crampons are significantly more durable and they climb pure ice better. Save your horizontal points for the snow...



Another thing about the stainless crampons to consider is that you can see cracks in them because there is no paint and can return them to BD. Painted ChroMo pons break too but you wont know it until they they blow up.

What it boils down to is that people have unrealistic expectations for the longevity of their gear. Most of your climbing gear has a 3-5 year life span and should be replaced. Everything breaks, period.

Ok i do agree with the everything breaks at some point. Well at least most things break at some point. Very rarely is something made so well you just cant kill it.

On the other hand something failing like a crampon is just not ok with me. Well i guess it is actually ok with me as i continue to use crampons and ice gear and you hear of the stuff failing all the time.

Alfonzo
03-08-2012, 06:46 AM
I know this is a gear review of the Lynx and thank you for that info Myxo.. However I do want to comment on the Sabertooths. I'm on my third pair and that is because they have been worn out. Some years I climb a lot and am never gentle with the stuff I use.... "breakage" has never been an issue, just "dullage."

I have been beating the living crap out of the stainless Sabertooths for two years now. Again no signs of fatigue. Also I've only had to sharpen them a few of times and very lightly on those occasions. The one thing I have yet to do is smack the bjeter belt out of them with a hammer & anvil.

I like living in a cave where I don't hear reports and replace something that is totally fine.

slink
03-08-2012, 07:54 AM
Cramer I would not switch to Mono points in the spring ,it is not a good idea in soft ice.

Myxomatosis
03-08-2012, 01:37 PM
Only thing i can say is the front points kinda turn inward towards each other on my Baturas a bit more than i would like.

I forgot to mention this! I had the same issue, and had to offset the font bail one hole to adjust the points to a more reasonable location. They still point inward a little more than I would want, but it works.

Cramer
03-08-2012, 06:00 PM
Yeah i tried the same thing but in my case it did not make much difference?

Ow well i suppose i will worry about it next year at this point;)


I forgot to mention this! I had the same issue, and had to offset the font bail one hole to adjust the points to a more reasonable location. They still point inward a little more than I would want, but it works.

nick
03-10-2012, 09:27 AM
NO gear should break with in 1 to 5 days!
i'v seen a few broken "bomer" ss pons!(both ft pt and horz) not so impressed! !
not ideal...
but again they are not all breaking so......

what does it all mean?
why are we here...

oaklem
03-11-2012, 03:34 AM
NO gear should break with in 1 to 5 days!
i'v seen a few broken "bomer" ss pons!(both ft pt and horz) not so impressed! !
not ideal...
but again they are not all breaking so......

what does it all mean?
why are we here...

I agree that things should not break in a few days. How long did it take to break those ss pons? I would have a hard time believing that it was in just a couple days, unless you are smashing them with a hammer.

Every crampon breaks eventually, it's a fact of life. Some are more hearty than others, the G14 and Cyborgs are probably the toughest out there. But if you dig around you can find those broken too.

What it boils down to is that you need to pay attention to your gear and take good care of it. If you see a crack in your crampon or snap off a front point after 2 days tell the manufacturer. They want to know about it so they can try and make them better!! And I know for a fact they will gladly replace them for you. And please if you break your gear contact them directly. They will get you a replacement faster and more importantly they will want you to ship the old ones back so they can investigate WHY is broke in the first place.

nick
03-12-2012, 12:27 PM
yes 4 to 5 days on ice ft pts of ss saber BROKE off (replaced no problem BTW)
2 days on ss cyborgs bent heal point and front point broke off as well
as far as contacting directlly, sure, however a good dealer should be able to help you out ASAP in the shop, they then send back to have 'em checked out.
belive what you whant but my guess is the old euro 'pon makers dont use ss for a reason...?
dunno tho!

i dont want to find a crack in my crampons after 2 seasons let alone 2 days!!!
hell i have old 2F's that i beat the heck out of and guess what 18+ years later still solid

agree to pay attention and inspect/matain all of your stuff (especcially ice gear that takes a wacking!)

also i know plenty of folks (Will Godd being one of 'em) who use and love horizontals for pure ice and mixed as well as local guides in the Adirondacks...
i still like/prefer my vertical ft pt for all things ice/mixed...

oaklem
03-12-2012, 08:18 PM
yes 4 to 5 days on ice ft pts of ss saber BROKE off (replaced no problem BTW)
2 days on ss cyborgs bent heal point and front point broke off as well
as far as contacting directlly, sure, however a good dealer should be able to help you out ASAP in the shop, they then send back to have 'em checked out.
belive what you whant but my guess is the old euro 'pon makers dont use ss for a reason...?
dunno tho!

i dont want to find a crack in my crampons after 2 seasons let alone 2 days!!!
hell i have old 2F's that i beat the heck out of and guess what 18+ years later still solid

agree to pay attention and inspect/matain all of your stuff (especcially ice gear that takes a wacking!)

also i know plenty of folks (Will Godd being one of 'em) who use and love horizontals for pure ice and mixed as well as local guides in the Adirondacks...
i still like/prefer my vertical ft pt for all things ice/mixed...

So how big of a hammer were you hitting them with?

Guess how pairs of SS pons all the BD pro climbers have broken. The answer is (0) zero. So either some people are just getting unlucky or need to change something, boots, center bars, climbing techniques etc.

I understand that you can and should be able to take your broken pons back to the shop, but going directly through the manufacturer is a better approach. They need to know the whole story behind the crampon. And don't just give them a "I was just climbing along" story, it's BS and they know it.

nick
03-12-2012, 09:55 PM
no hammer/not mine...

guess how many non-pros (i.e. all others) broke ss pons?
(hint: its NOT zero!)

what if the "story" was "i'm just leading along and i smashed my crampons by accident with my adze..." ?

anyhow...
...the season is now going past my window...
warm...

oaklem
03-12-2012, 10:07 PM
no hammer/not mine...

guess how many non-pros (i.e. all others) broke ss pons?
(hint: its NOT zero!)

what if the "story" was "i'm just leading along and i smashed my crampons by accident with my adze..." ?

anyhow...
...the season is now going past my window...
warm...

My point on the pros not breaking any pons is that they get a lot more days on them than us normal folks and they never seem to break any. A season with Gadd is probably a life time for a lot of other people. So how is it that other people break them and he doesn't? My guess is mis-use

nick
03-13-2012, 12:21 AM
FWIW the ss saber pair from 4+ days uses WAS a pro...!

anyhow, what is misuse in a crampon...?

i know a lot of idiots and i still can't see any of them swinging a hammer at their crampons or walking in a parking lot and kicking guard rails... misuse?

dun'no!

grammy
03-13-2012, 11:41 AM
I have used the Lynx all season and had a little trouble with the bolts the first couple of times out, but have had no loosening since. I would also agree that the front point in the mono configuration tends to point the monopoint inwards...a bit more than I care for, but to somewhat remedy this, I offset the front toe bail and they seem to be fine now. I have Scarpa Phantom Guides and the toe bail slid around on the toe welt until I offset them. I think this is more of a Scarpa thing than a Petzl thing, but given their recent track record...Petzl is slowly being replaced by other brands in my rock and ice quiver. I do like the way they climb, they are lightweight, and it took me about 2 minutes a piece to convert them to monos. The antibots work extrememly well and despite my tooling on them on some mixed stuff this season, they appear to have held up well. The BD Stingers are looking pretty good to me...but I do like having the ability to go from dual to mono with the same pair of crampons.

Dane
03-15-2012, 02:01 AM
No one can justify the broken stainless sabers...and there have been lots of them.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/02/it-is-dead-horse-more-on-stainless.html

Also the Petzl Lynx front points are forged..not cast.

For what ever reason there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.

oaklem
03-17-2012, 01:05 AM
No one can justify the broken stainless sabers...and there have been lots of them.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/02/it-is-dead-horse-more-on-stainless.html

Also the Petzl Lynx front points are forged..not cast.

For what ever reason there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.


From Petzl: http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/news/products-news-0/2011/09/16/lynx-modular-crampon-for-ice-and-mixed-climbing

"- front points are made of lost wax process"

Lost wax process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost-wax_casting

front points are cast.

Dane
04-03-2012, 02:50 PM
Took me a whille to see this and then get an answer from Petzl.

My apologies. The Lynx is indeed a wax casting. I don't trust auto response comments so wanted that to be clarified in person from Petzl. Which it was. The Darts and Dartwins front points are forged then welded on.

My apologies for the misinformation on the Lynx. From the returns this season at Petzl the Lynx are just as durable as the Darts and Dartwins have been in the past.

Happy to have a discussion on casting if you like. Done right it can be extremely durable compared to a well done forging. The difference in today's technology is not generally strength or durability but the abiity to cast a much more intricate part. Quick comparison of Dartwin front points and the Lynx front points will tell you why Petzl decided on a cast part.

oaklem
04-05-2012, 11:50 PM
http://www.on-ice.it/onice/viewtopic.php?p=154022#154022

I think that this (and there are other examples out there) are a perfect example of why casting on a very small part like a front point is a bad idea. The advantage of casting is that it allows for more complex shapes than a forging process, and in many cases is less expensive. The disadvantage of casting is that is does not provide any sort of grain uniformity in the material. this is not much of an issue on large parts where there is sufficient material to out weigh the need for grain structure. Casting is typically not going to be the best process for any part that is trying to be at a minimum weight with the highest strength properties.

Forgings have a big advantage on less complex shaped and smaller parts. Front points are a perfect example of a good use for a forging process. forgings in general are much stronger parts due to the processes being inherently unequal. There is a very good reason that the engineers a Boeing choose to use forgings and not castings on flight critical structural components.

Dane
04-06-2012, 09:56 PM
Yes the pair of crampons from the of Italian web site are a great picture. But to date the only pair I have seen of a broken Lynx front point. Have you proof of more?

Forging is a good process done right. But you are mistaken if you think good casting is not up to the effort on crampons or other hard use parts.

MIM and other casting methods are not what they were (if they were available) even a decade ago. The firearms industry (where I work) is now full of castings that were formally only forged parts. Many of those cast parts (formally forged parts) are required to take a million of cycles or more. Some have an even better reliability history than the original forgings did. Much to the original detractor's (including myself) surprise.

So yes on one hand you can make exceptional parts from forgings. But you can also make excellent parts from the right casting process as well. Boeing uses all sorts of manufacturing techniques including casting and forgings. Not the best comparison.

I was told and believe that the Lynx has no more of a failure rate than the Dart or Dartwin's forged front point. Both those older crampons have a long history now of durability and reliability. They fail as well but it isn't often.

When I was a kid..the joke was "made in Japan". These days "made in Japan" is generally a sign of quality. Same comment applies to your comments on cast verses forged to a fair extent...just a bit dated and ill informed.

oaklem
04-06-2012, 11:31 PM
Yes boeing uses a lot of different manufacturing processes. In my line of work I have seen designs/engineering for a lot of their parts. The horizontal stabilizer (little rear wings) for their newest aircraft is pretty big and has a lot of components in it. If any of those components fail that plane could crash and kill ~300 people. I spent over a month digging through all this and saw hundreds of forgings and not a single casting. Boeing has more money and more engineers than all the climbing companies combined, and have been at it a long time.

Using the firearm industry is not a great example. If you compare a barrel, which would see the highest force of any component in a gun, to a front point to have some fundamental flaws in your logic. A barrel sees force from the inside of a tube trying to expand out radially. A front point is a classic beam bending / moment arm, application. Not even close to comparable.

I agree that technology changes and that casting has gotten better, no doubt. But petzl has not proved that their casting process is any better than a forging process. You seem to have good contacts there, see if they will get you a few dozen front points and I will gladly cycle test them in my lab, I'll do Grivel and BD ones too while I'm at it. I would much prefer to let the data do the talking.

Dane
04-07-2012, 05:04 AM
Agreed, data should be doing the talking.

But back up a bit. Barrels are not cast. None that I know of anyway. But hammers, sears and frames and many of the other parts in modern firarms are. And all have been forged in the past or at least cut from bar stock and heat treated accordingly. All requiring the durability of 100s of thousands of cycles with stesses on much smaller tolerences and of much higher forces that an crampon will ever get.

Forgings hu? Generally a milled tool steel part that is heat treated to spec will sufice. Steel like aermet for example which Boeing uses a lot of here in the Seattle area. Most of tthe small shops here do e contract work for Boeing.

As I said..modern castings are up to the task of a simple front point. Beam bending / moment arm, application? Not that far of a stretch for cast parts in firearms currently.

You want to argue Petzl's use of a casting that has two documented failures that I know of but tell us the horizontal stainless crampons don't have an issue?

interesting screen name...seems awful familiar some how OAKM or OAKLEM?

oaklem
04-07-2012, 12:55 PM
OK then, Petzl sees returns on all their vertical frontpoint models. And since the Lynx is at the lowest with 2 pairs broken (we all know of) in 6 months (these were not available any sooner), what is the returns rate on the Darts and Dartwin? It has to be higher right? you said that Petzl told you the Lynx was doing better. What do you consider acceptable for crampons returns since you obviously considers Petzl’s return rate good enough?

Dane
04-11-2012, 11:26 PM
Hey Oaklem as a new resident of SLC Utah and since we are all into full disclosure right? You have refused to answer on ST, how about an answer here? Kinda sad you deemed it neccessary to change the subject and attempt to smear another company that has more than proven they are concerned about their customers.

Sad indeed.


Here is a straight up question for you Oakm. Do you work for BD now or have you in the past as a employee, as contract labor or have you ever applied for a job with BD? What I want to know specifically is have you ever had any sort of professional relationship with BD. The answer can be a simple and clear cut, yes or no.

and now we know why...

For what ever reason there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.

Extrablue
10-24-2012, 12:47 PM
Back to the topic.
The Lynx crampons are freaking awesome. Only issue I had with them last season was that eventually the anti-bot plate starts to tear near the front points.
Oh, and you can mount the Lynx's in clip mode then mod-out any old pair of clip crampons with the bucket bails and and make your clip Seracs/Saberteeth/G14/Rambos(though why you'd do this??)/Vampires whatever into a semi-auto crampon. Went from climbing Yellow/Black to Orange/Black with no complaints.

lazarus1989
11-12-2012, 11:00 PM
That's going to be my new crampon. awesome!!!

Number8
11-13-2012, 09:24 PM
That 'nick' fella looks like one of the best, most convincing trolls we've seen in a while..

KathyS
11-14-2012, 10:29 AM
Oaklem, While Boeing may not use many castings, aircraft engine manufacturers do. Some of the turbine blades in commercial jet engines are cast via the lost wax process. Not that an airplane analogy has much to do with ice climbing.

granjo
11-18-2012, 11:16 PM
Well, I just opted on a pair of the Grivel G22s...fit is good on my Nepals and i'm looking forward to using them...i've been on old and beaten DMM terminators for too long now. Can't wait...

Brownze
01-15-2014, 05:40 PM
Just found this post.

I also had a front point on the lynx break.
I was all excited to switch them to mono when i got them. but when the front point broke just a week or two after getting them, the idea of going mono with them is terrifying. Might have been my second time out with them?

Brownze
01-15-2014, 05:41 PM
Found these though.

http://krukonogi.com/en/ice-drytooling/frontpoints-for-crampons/fl2-a.html

thoughts?

grammy
01-21-2014, 11:04 AM
Got sick of having to tighten the front points every other time out. Just couldn't get used to the geometry of the front points and hated how my heels clicked together on thin ice runnels. Corners were a nightmare if you couldn't stem...had to keep feet on different planes..one on top of the other. I sold mine two weeks ago...sticking with the stingers.

Tomcat
01-22-2014, 03:21 PM
Hahaha, thought it was just me...lol....useless in any kind of tight groove as monos, hard to climb thin ice as duals. For some reason I can't even walk in them, which is what I got them for. Back to the Rambo4's for me....

grammy
02-04-2014, 11:35 AM
Hahaha, thought it was just me...lol....useless in any kind of tight groove as monos, hard to climb thin ice as duals. For some reason I can't even walk in them, which is what I got them for. Back to the Rambo4's for me....

Ok..we aren't crazy then Tom! ;) I even switched out the bars..and put the left one on the right foot and visa versa...no go...too much tweaking for something that price! Back to the tried and true!!

gunked
02-07-2014, 11:36 PM
These issues are interesting. I have a completely different issue with them: I'm wearing through the frame points way too quickly and they seem shorter to me than my old M-10's. I should probably have started with the fact that I'm a Catskills ice guide, so I walk on a bit of rock. I probably have 30 or less days out on them and I'm wearing through the frames too quickly. Frame points are way too short. I feel like they won't take more than one sharpen. They climbed wonderfully when new!

-Jason

nightclimber
03-12-2014, 10:47 PM
A wonderful replacement to the M-10... I have only had them for a few weeks and have yet to do any mixed climbing. I have had ZERO of the above mentioned problems. I have climbed mostly grade 4-5 with them, and am truly pleased. If they prove as durable as the M-10 i will have a new favorite crampon.

RJNoble
03-13-2014, 07:26 PM
Got a pair of Lynx this year and love them. This is nearly my 26th or so year of ice climbing so ive had a few crampons over the years. So far these have been my favorites. Took a little initial set up time getting everything adjusted just right and only my first time or two have the front bolts loosened[ never could keep my BD Cyborgs tight] if it ever becomes a problem the light duty[blue?] loctite works well.
I like the inturned front points. Thought it would be strange but I find my foot placements are very natural and more relaxed than having points coming strait out fro my toes.

Extrablue
12-14-2014, 09:18 PM
Update. Been ~three years on the Lynx now.
Major thoughts.
Yes they loosen over time. Hasn't been a big deal for me.
Yes, depending on your boot the points toe in. I switched the spacer bars (L on Right foot, R on Left Foot) and they toe straight in on my Mammooks.
Yes I haven't though of going back to my Rambo (2nd Gen) since I started using them.
Like them in Dual and in Mono. Usually climb in dual now after years on Monos, but sometimes you got to switch it up.

BIG COMPLAINT. It's hard to find spare points for them.

Overall rating.
Great.
Biggest pro for anyone looking at them is the ability to use the second toe clip to make your old pons hiking boot compatible. Would I take them over a G14. Dunno. Over a Blade Runner it's a matter of price though those horizontal points are pretty cool. If you got them or are going to get them be happy.

If you're in the market for crampons, let's be honest here, OGE & Rock and Snow have buckets of old Rambos and G14s for like $50 and with a trip to the hardwear store you can mod new points on them.